1. Powerwrap Lp

Decided to try tele, so got a pair of Scarpa T4s to increase the interest level with resort skiing in the east. I think I want releasable bindings, which I'm finding are hard to come by these days. I may try to find a used pair of 7tms. Am I making a mistake worrying about releasable bindings?I'm trying to understand how the different types of bindings will feel. Do the springs on the HHs and Axls produce resistance against the shin when leaning forward?

If so, I would think that would be a big advantage in better edging and also maybe less tiring. Any advice much appreciated, amigos!

I looked at your user date and am going to be completely honest:T4'are like wearing a pair of slippers; try to get a T1/axle setup and you will learn to ski again and have fun squatting to pee. Don't torture yourself.Don't do what you are doing. Your instincts of reaching out are justified. Buy some midfats, 90-100, get some real boots (that is all that matters), don't give a shit about the bindings, and have fun.Seriously, T4's are like trainers. Get a boot, and start there. What size are you?

I just gave a pair of T1's with intuitions and scarpa powerstraps to a person just starting today. I know me, and the collective, can help you out way more that the rootbeers that you have.I'm serious. We are gay, but we are here to help. We have a 900 and 800 line.

This is good advice- if you’re trying to learn to carve turns on T4s on east coast ice all you’ll be doing is blowing edges and bruising your hips. Been there, done that, and boots make a world of difference.Others may disagree, but if you can find a cheaper setup (and they’re often available on the forums), go NTN. You get quasi-releasability and the best torsional rigidity IMO.

For a resort-only setup, there’s no reason to not at least consider it. But otherwise, if you’re going duckbill, BD push is a great choice, custom as well, although the latter are a bit on the stiff side for a beginner. Hammerheads/axls/vices/Bomber Bishops will all serve you well as bindings.I looked at your user date and am going to be completely honest:T4'are like wearing a pair of slippers; try to get a T1/axle setup and you will learn to ski again and have fun squatting to pee. Don't torture yourself.Don't do what you are doing. Your instincts of reaching out are justified. Buy some midfats, 90-100, get some real boots (that is all that matters), don't give a shit about the bindings, and have fun.Seriously, T4's are like trainers. Get a boot, and start there.

What size are you? I just gave a pair of T1's with intuitions and scarpa powerstraps to a person just starting today. I know me, and the collective, can help you out way more that the rootbeers that you have.I'm serious. We are gay, but we are here to help. We have a 900 and 800 line. Agreed w above posters. T4 is a kids boot.

Get a big 4buckle (or equivalent) boot and a 22 designs binding. If you're touring at all, get Axl. If not, then Hammerhead can be had for cheap these days.lastly, if you're flush w cash (sound like not, but cannot tell), you might try the NTN setup. It's $$$$ to get into, but once you're in, you can swap the bindings from ski to ski and the ski performance - edge control in particular- is tough to beat.as far as releasable bindings, i have never entertained the idea, but NTN will satisfy this criterion to some degree as well.good luck.oh- i might have a set of hammerheads kicking around that i could sell. Would have to look though. I was responding to those who are comparing T4s to slippers (which they are not) and those who seem to suggest that it is impossible to learn how to tele in anything other than huge bootsbottom line for me is, big skis=big boots.

I cannot expect to effectively drive a 105ish waist ski w Axl binding using a T4. There's just no way.my buddy is trying tele and he's got some t2 Eco boots, line prophet 100s w Axl and immediately noticed that the boot is flexing too much when trying to drive the ski, in position 2.of course, if you're on a 80waist ski w a voile binding, then i could see the point that a T4 is enough boot.ymmv. Not suggesting suffering on leather boots here.Did OP said he's going to try to learn on 105mm waisted skis on EC lift-served slopes? That'd be kinda stupid. Anyway, I could turn 105mm skis fine in T4s in Axls in the most active setting in conditions that would call for a 105mm waisted ski (i.e., soft). T4s in HHs would be fine for learning. IME, T3s in HH#5 is more control than T1s in 7tM Powers.

T1s in Targas is a joke on firm. It aint just about the boot.I'm outa the office soon to buy Switchback X2s to be mounted on Voile Vector BCs, paired with my older T2s and T3s. I don't know if I agree with the above; it depends on what are you going to use these for? If you're skiing with your 4-year old at the resort and don't want to be bored tailing him/her down groomed intermediate slopes, T4's are fine. I've done that with Garmont Excursions. If you're going to ski the whole mountain, then I agree that T4's are a poor choice.I wouldn't pair T4's with a 22 Designs binding.

Those are powerful or very active bindings and I'd get a bigger boot or a different binding. People describe active vs. Inactive differently (see the thread on telemarking is stupid), but you seem to generally understand it - the binding will engage and create tension keeping the heel down on the ski, and yes, it makes for powerful edging.If you get a bigger boot, 22 Design Bindings have a loyal and happy following.I personally am partial to Voile Switchback or the X2 version (which is more active or powerful than the original) - lightweight, simple, and strong enough. Can be paired with T4's and up.Releasability. If you need it, your options include TTS and NTN, both of which, as far as I know, are not DIN rated but are designed to allow for a release. You would need to sell your T4's and buy new boots.

Other options include release plates from Telebry (still being made I believe) or Voile (no longer being made), or the 7tm bindings (some love, some hate, and a lot laugh at).In my view, if you absolutely need releasability, stick with alpine or AT. That is subject to change when/if I get the chance to try TTS or NTN.

I wouldn't pair T4's with a 22 Designs binding.Have you tried it? I've got 100+ days in gen1 T2s (soft/short, like current T3s) and they work great.

ETA:Hell, now that I think of it, I've skied a dozen days in Excursions in HHs with good results./ETA No reason a T4 wouldn't work well in HHs or Axls in the right setting. When HHs first came out, the word among pinners was that the HH underfoot cable allowed one to use a smaller/softer boot, and we saw lots of other people on T3s and old T2s (like T3s) on HHs. Now it's all about huge tele boots. I agree that the Switchback X2 would be a much better match for T4s for touring, but HHs at lift areas might steepen the learning curve. While maybe not the same way, it can be just as severe - ask the guys around here with spiral fractures. Releasable, even non-DIN, is better than nothing.Me me!!! (Raises hand.) Destroyed my lower leg with Hammerheads not releasing in like a 50-60MPH cartwheel (and I pretty much always bring it up when threads like this surface).That said, I was fine with BD O2s and O1s until I started pushing it harder.If I was going back to tele at a resort today, I'd go NTN with no hesitation.

Edge power, adjustability, and at least a modicum of release, even if not as much as an alpine binding. They've been out long enough to find used now/on sale.

For meadowskipping over hill and dale, I'd say Switchbacks because I'd be far less worried about a high impact crash. Well I have no idea what bindings those are?HHs, Axls or O1/O2, obviously, since he's already got duckbill boots (and thus NTN is out of the picture.) That's obvious to those of us who learned before underfoot cable bindings.

The Pitbull, for all of its weaknesses, was much easier to learn on than anything else 20+ years ago, and then the HH came out and learning curves greatly steepened. We all watched it happening in real time back then.Me me!!! (Raises hand.) Destroyed my lower leg with Hammerheads not releasing in like a 50-60MPH cartwheelSorry to hear it.

I'm fortunate to have survived nearly two decades of skiing way too fast on tele gear. Now I'm past the danger zone: old, slow and on AT gear most of the time, tele gear for meadow skipping and the occasional tele night lift ski. Sorry to hear it. I'm fortunate to have survived nearly two decades of skiing way too fast on tele gear. Now I'm past the danger zone: old, slow and on AT gear most of the time, tele gear for meadow skipping and the occasional tele night lift ski.Thanks. Yeah, I got smart and switched to Dynafits and Dukes for inbounds (for boot sole compatibility purposes, for now). I still have a pair of brand new Alpina leather plastics (can't remember the model) that a customer gave me when I worked at The Co-op as an undergrad.

I'll probably mount Switchbacks on some XCD skis and try it again in the future-though I developed a 'Checkrein Deformity' that was only partly fixed surgically, so I'm not sure how successful tele turns will ever be again for me. Lunges with that leg back are challenging because my two big toes don't bend right. I'll probably try skating again this winter, as that's where I originally came from before this tele-alpine stuff. Funny how this keeps popping up.re alpiners going tele.Me: long time alpine skier, also did 5 years as a snowboarder, am a surfer, windsurfer, SUPer.looking at a 70 day ski season (semi sabbatical) figured 'how hard can it be to tele' on the inbounds days. Would give me something to do with no fresh.Bought the Mike and Allens Telemark Tips book. Ebay $13Talked to some on here and the Glacier Ski Shop boys.

Decided I wanted stiff tele boots and NTNs, the 'purists' at Glacier said I was not really tele'ing with NTNs and stiff boots. I don't care, I like to go fast.I saw some brand new (they are new but stamped 2010s) NTN Freerides on Sierra trading post. Got them for $175 delivered.Then went on an NTN boot hunt.

Found some Scarpa Comps (24.5/25 shell = 291mm which is close to my 290mm Cochise alpine) on here for $70, no liner, no top buckle. Got em for $60 cause no buckle. Added a $35 booster strap, and my old Intuition powerwrap liners.Glacier ski shop is mounting some new top buckles e Scarpa Comps on them week for $20.Mounted them on some 185 Scimitars I had (128/98/121), that have slight rocker.most of my alpine skis are rocker. I have skiied Scimitars in ice and they grip fine.Total cost $175 binding + $115 boot + $299 ski.no taxes or shipping:74145775.

I don't know if I agree with the above; it depends on what are you going to use these for? If you're skiing with your 4-year old at the resort and don't want to be bored tailing him/her down groomed intermediate slopes, T4's are fine. I've done that with Garmont Excursions. If you're going to ski the whole mountain, then I agree that T4's are a poor choice.I was always tempted to give tele a try so I ski with my GF. Does it really make baby sitting fun?I might just grab the first set that pops up in craigslist for less than $100.

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While nice enough guys, the 'purists' at GSS have no room to talk about what is/is not telemarking. They're on Crispi XR or whatever the race 75mm race boots are (which are leaps and bounds stiffer than the TX Comp) and skiing with kayak paddles FFS!!!Ya I've seen them tele'ing with the kayak paddles.like the 'lurks' of old.I don't care what anyone thinks.

I did my limited research and the Scarpa Comp boots / NTN bindings made sense to an ex-alpine guy. My NTNs are sweet even though they are 2010s. I have tried them on in the living room, nice walk mode, easy in and out, pretty burly.Will report back after day 1 on this set-up.What I like is that if tele turning sucks I can just alpine turn these NTNs and stiff boots.hopefully right in front of some shaggy bearded dude with leather boots and 3 pin bindings.oh yeah, I also plan to barely drop my back knee!K. Ya got the free heels and frankly I don't give a fuck how you ski them, how many poleplants you do or where you put your knee pads.just go skiYOU GUYS ROCK!!!Never expected so many posts-no time to reply to all individually today, but will try to do so in the next few days.You've given me lots to think about.

I'm tempted to trade in the T4s for something more substantial, which I may be able to do. Unfortunately, I don't think I can get NTN boots in trade,but that does sound like a good option. I might just get a used pair or 7tns and upgrade the boots.Anyway, really appreciate the feedback! But it's not. Well I learned on leathers which were replaced by t3's and t-1's, each time it was better and it would have been better to learn on the T-1, I don't think there is anything noble in suffering on old gearMaybe the better question would be how much of a hill out east buddy is trying to make interesting?I haven't skied out east but I am thinking a big honking setup might be overkill someplaces??My local hill is a little place called Blue Mtn, which boasts the highest vert in PA (1000')! A few decent pitches but basically blue runs by western standards. I wasn't planning to tele on trips out west, but if I really take to it, it would be nice not to have to buy a whole new setup.

So, what in your opinion, is the better duckbill binding for learning?Not being cute, I just said earlier it depends. The alpine ripper would be well matched with the bindings you listed; the XC skier who wants to skip steeper/deeper meadows wouldn't. But, this all started with someone showing up with a pair of T4s and looking for a pair of bindings to mate them with. If he didn't know it, someone needs to say 3-pins or Switchbacks make the most sense.

Reasonably, the chorus said get bigger boots 'cause you said you were going to tele at a resort. Can you go big with T4s, sure. Perhaps you do. I just wouldn't start there. Not suggesting suffering on leather boots here.Did OP said he's going to try to learn on 105mm waisted skis on EC lift-served slopes? That'd be kinda stupid. Anyway, I could turn 105mm skis fine in T4s in Axls in the most active setting in conditions that would call for a 105mm waisted ski (i.e., soft).

T4s in HHs would be fine for learning. IME, T3s in HH#5 is more control than T1s in 7tM Powers. T1s in Targas is a joke on firm. It aint just about the boot.I'm outa the office soon to buy Switchback X2s to be mounted on Voile Vector BCs, paired with my older T2s and T3s.I got some old K2 'extreme' skis, about 90 waist and pretty soft, twin tips. Should be pretty easy to turn.

Not being cute, I just said earlier it depends. The alpine ripper would be well matched with the bindings you listed; the XC skier who wants to skip steeper/deeper meadows wouldn't. But, this all started with someone showing up with a pair of T4s and looking for a pair of bindings to mate them with. If he didn't know it, someone needs to say 3-pins or Switchbacks make the most sense. Reasonably, the chorus said get bigger boots 'cause you said you were going to tele at a resort. Can you go big with T4s, sure.

Perhaps you do. I just wouldn't start there.Yup, makes sense, dschane.So, to my original question about the 'springs' on the axls and HHs, what is their function? I get it, thanks.I guess dschane did answer that question in an earlier post.All but untethered 3 pin binding utilize springs of some sort to absorb the forces on the bindings from the turn and provide activity if you want to be more precise.Don't even worry about it, they are meaningless to you at this point in the game. Focus on just getting a decent pair of boots that are more capable than for meadow-skipping on modern skis. Then just pick anything, but focus on a free pivot if you are going bc/tour. That was a legit game changer, even when we thought back then that we had the tour advantage against the heavy clack clackers.Seriously, there's not much to this pseudo hippy shit. Just get out there with a setup that is challenging, relevant - related to ancient technology (would you teach your daughter to drive in a model T (terminator)), and most importantly, comfortable.And, embrace the fact and science that nobody gives a damn flying fuck that you tele.You'll give it up in two years anyway.

TL;DR version - go floppy if you want to learn what may (or may not) be fun about tele, go big if you just wanna be skiing the same shit, different gear.So now that TeleTips is RIP, all the self-justfiying Telewhacker posts have migrated to TGR. That's OK, though.Anyway. Believe it or not, I actually prefer the former route (start with inferior gear, work your way up only if you like tele), but that's just 'cuz I'm stupid and stubborn and justifying my own choices. However, if you're not patient, then that route would probably not work for you. Of course YMMV.I resemble and echo this sentiment, while I am looking in front of me at my my kazama's, multiple tuas, seths with bomber's and explosivs too, carbon lhasa's, s3's, maven's, and death wishes. But, I don't care that I tele either, I just like to ski. I've got a closet full of old boots that I don't even know what to do with besides feel old, get drunk, and feel an overwhelming sense of nostalgia, which, by the way, can probably be said for any true skier here.Have fun.

And let Big Steve give you a clinic. TL;DR version - go floppy if you want to learn what may (or may not) be fun about tele, go big if you just wanna be skiing the same shit, different gear.So now that TeleTips is RIP, all the self-justfiying Telewhacker posts have migrated to TGR. That's OK, though.Anyway. Not being cute, HH#1, HH#2, HH#3, HH#4, HH#5 = five bindings in one, allows the beginner to decide what level of activity works for him/her. And I'm not getting how anything other than an underfoot cable binding could possibly be better for learning. (I'm excluding NTN cuz OP already has duckbill boots.)I'm leaning in this direction; at my age, and only skiing 20-30 days a year I'm not sure if I have time or patience to master the technique with more classic bindings. I also like the idea of being able to parallel if necessary.

Do the HHs have a free pivot? Axl#1 = HH#1.5; Axl#2 = HH#3; Axl #3 = HH#4.5 or something like that.I knew a guy who always skied in HH#2. He liked a passive binding and underfoot cable.

HH#2 would be fine for a fat fishscale meadow skipper setup (Voile Vector BC) although Switchback (reg or X2) would be the lighter setup and free pivot too.ETA: I'm holding off on getting the Switchback X2s. Decided to try TTS for my Vector BCs. That will allow me to swap more easily to tech bindings for multi-day spring tours. (Unfortunately, Mark is out of some components, which are on back order.). I'm leaning in this direction; at my age, and only skiing 20-30 days a year I'm not sure if I have time or patience to master the technique with more classic bindings.Re: my last post - remember, it's all relative. T4s are waaay burlier than the leather boots many of us learned to tele on, and the current 'simple' bindings such as Voile Hardwire (or switchback if you're touring more) or the Rottefella R8 are waay more powerful than the 3-pin with VP-1 or even the old BD Rivas that were state-of-the art back in the day.What I'm saying is if you're a reasonably good alpiner, you should be fine parallelling on T4s and simple gear as you start out and learn the turn. Just remember that it'll be a bit more challenging than with burlier stuff, but that's part of the stoopid retro appeal of tele, and it does promote good technique, and fun turns if you're into all that:rolleyes2.

Lighter, less 'active' boots/bindings might be more of a problem if you go with bigger fatter skis, but since you're on the EC, you'll prolly not need some humongous 120mm underfoot crudblaster, in which case the T4/Voile may be just fine for you (and generally for skis 95mm underfoot or less), depending on your ability, (and again, depending on your patience).Disclaimer: I'm biased towards Voile, 'cause I ski with some of the Voile folks and they take good care of me, but they make fantastic product that reflects their motto: simple, solid, backcountry. 22Designs make great bindings as well, with the pro being they are adjustable and the con being they are more expensive, heavier and more complicated. Otherwise, go ntn.But he's already invested in T4s. I'll say it again: T4s in HH#3,#4 or #5 are not floppy. But not floppy.Some good points, Tri-U.

I too am a Voile fan and have been since the Wally/Charlie/Dwight days, I was one of the many beneficiaries of the original Voile Plate, which BTW acted much like an underfoot cable binding, and I'm currently a big advocate of Voile's fat fishscale skis. But I'm also a fan of Russ Rainey's designs: )I agree with most of your points. Gotta say that IME an underfoot cable binding aids greatly when learning because the noob can more easily get the feel of loading the rear ski.Looking forward to trying TTS. Put together a TTS setup towards the end of last season but only managed to ski it one day at the resort. Surprisingly (but in keeping with previous reports), it was very powerful, and almost a little too stiff for my tastes. That said, I can’t wait to try it out in the BC, seems like it has the potential to really be the best of both worlds.

That being said, you can’t tele with TLT5s, and now I’m spoiled:)But he's already invested in T4s. I'll say it again: T4s in HH#3,#4 or #5 are not floppy. But not floppy.Some good points, Tri-U. I too am a Voile fan and have been since the Wally/Charlie/Dwight days, I was one of the many beneficiaries of the original Voile Plate, which BTW acted much like an underfoot cable binding, and I'm currently a big advocate of Voile's fat fishscale skis. But I'm also a fan of Russ Rainey's designs: )I agree with most of your points. Gotta say that IME an underfoot cable binding aids greatly when learning because the noob can more easily get the feel of loading the rear ski.Looking forward to trying TTS.

Crash55, Sierra Trading Post has Garmont NTN boots in a 25 and 25.5 today for $258 with the AXE0456V code. I bought a pair myself this fall.

I learned to tele in leathers in the 90s. NTN gives you unbelievable edge control, they are releasable and have brakes. If you get the Freerides they also have three mounting positions with adjusting a single screw.My son wanted to learn to tele last year and instead of him using my old gear we got him his own NTN boots. I didn't want him cartwheeling downhill with skis still attached like I did!Ebay has some decent NTN boot buys sometimes as well. But typing on a fucking mobile device gets old so I keep it short and avoid splitting hairs.He wanted release. Hence the 7tm suggestion.

I've skied every boot/binding combo under discussion here.pros/con's to all choices. These tele threads would be easier if we didn't have to rehash everything repeatedly.:rolleyes2Hey, if I'd found a relevant thread I wouldn't have put you guys through this.thanks for all the input. The choice between authentic tele old school with painful learning curve vs higher tech equipment is pretty clear to me now. Please don't feel like you wasted your time! All I need to do now is decide whether the feeling I get as more of a purist is worth the pain or not.Cheers!:). Crash55, Sierra Trading Post has Garmont NTN boots in a 25 and 25.5 today for $258 with the AXE0456V code.

I bought a pair myself this fall. I learned to tele in leathers in the 90s. NTN gives you unbelievable edge control, they are releasable and have brakes. If you get the Freerides they also have three mounting positions with adjusting a single screw.My son wanted to learn to tele last year and instead of him using my old gear we got him his own NTN boots. I didn't want him cartwheeling downhill with skis still attached like I did!Ebay has some decent NTN boot buys sometimes as well.That is an excellent bit of info, even if it does whip my head around 180 degrees back to the NTN consideration. I thought the boots would be double that price.

Darn it, may have to consider that. All my Small NTN freerides are gone. BTW, the 26.0 Garmont Prophet needs a L NTN binding.

Scarpa 26.0 uses S NTN.Turns out I can return the T4s so I'm pretty well decided to go for the NTN setup. My local shop ordered NTN bindings by mistake (I know more than they do about tele at this point) but they ordered the Freedom instead of the Freeride. The latter seems to have alot more options. Do you get a full set of springs with a new binding?

Are they hard to switch, and would you switch springs if climbing vs descending?Which binding would you recommend for me? BTW it turns out the T4 is a mondo 27 but my alpine boots are 26.

I guess I'm right in between, which makes the sizing of the binding tricky. How to edit photos in photoshop cs6.

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